Tag: julio cesar chavez

SPECIAL REPORT: BOXING JUNKIE POLLED 13 BOXING EXPERTS TO DETERMINE THE GREATEST MEXICAN BOXER OF ALL TIME

A poll of 13 boxing experts who were asked to name their Top 5 Mexican boxers of all time revealed collectively this about Canelo Alvarez: You can’t say he’s No. 1, at least not yet.

Boxing Junkie asked the experts – all writers with keen knowledge of history – to rank the best five Mexican (not Mexican-American) fighters in order. First-place votes were worth 10 points, second eight points, third six points, fourth four points and fifth two points.

Thirteen fighters received votes. Five of them received first-place votes. That included Alvarez, who is scheduled to face Billy Joe Saunders on DAZN and pay-per-view Saturday at AT&T Stadium in Arlington, Texas.

The winner of the poll will be no surprise to those who have followed boxing over the past 30 years: Julio Cesar Chavez, the three-division titleholder who was the face of Mexican boxing for decades. And it wasn’t close.

Here are the standings (with first-place votes in parenthesis). Also included are Honorable Mentions, who some voters included in addition to their Top 5:

118 – Julio Cesar Chavez (8)
70 – Salvador Sanchez (1)
56 – Ruben Olivares (1)
30 – Canelo Alvarez (2)
24 – Juan Manuel Marquez
20 – Baby Arizmendi (1)
16 – Ricardo Lopez
16 – Vicente Saldivar
14 – Carlos Zarate
13 – Marco Antonio Barrera
7 – Erik Morales
4 – Kid Azteca
2 – Jose Becerra

Honorable Mention

Ricardo Lopez (4 votes), Ruben Olivares (2), Kid Azteca, Marco Antonio Barrera, Enrique Bolanos, Miguel Canto, Pipino Cuevas, Humberto Gonzalez, Lupe Pintor, Vicente Saldivar, Salvador Sanchez and Carlos Zarate.

***

Two of the voters (Thomas Hauser and Henry Hascup) believe that Alvarez, a four-division titleholder whose only loss came against Floyd Mayweather, has done enough to reach the top of the list. However, Hascup cautioned, “This could change as he is still active.”

Others acknowledge Alvarez’s accomplishments and either said or implied that he could climb higher on the list in time.

“Canelo Alvarez’s pursuit of history continues,” Norm Frauenheim said. “He’s made plenty and he’s expected to make more. But history is like a resume. Judge it for its thoroughness. Canelo is not on this list — not yet anyway — because of what’s missing: A third fight with Gennadiy Golovkin.

“It might be past due, but the first two bouts left questions. Answer them with a definitive victory and Mexican history might belong to Canelo.”

Doug Fischer, who also didn’t rank Alvarez: “Canelo is just outside [the Top 5 but] he’s headed in the right direction.”

Tom Gray, another who left Alvarez out: “I wouldn’t include Canelo yet. I think he’s brilliant, and he’ll probably make my list eventually, but saying that he stands above any of these guys when his career is incomplete makes me feel uneasy.”

Bernard Fernandez, who ranked Alvarez No. 4: “Seeing as how much more of his career has yet to play out, I’m not sure if I have him too high or too low at this point.”

A few takeaways:

• Chavez was the only fighter on all 13 Top 5 lists.
• Chavez received eight first-place votes. Among the others, only Alvarez received more than one first-place vote (two).
• Sanchez and Chavez tied for the most second-place votes (four), Sanchez and Olivares tied for the most third-place votes (four), Marquez had the most four-place votes (four), and Olivares and Alvarez tied for the most fifth-place votes (three).
• Voters recognized the contributions of Mexican boxing pioneers. Baby Arizmendi, who received three votes, last fought in 1942. Kid Azteca fought from 1929 to 1961, as Mike Silver (author of “The Night the Referee Hit Back: Memorable Moments from the World of Boxing”) pointed out. Azteca received one vote.
• Alvarez is the only active fighter to receive votes.
• Juan Manuel Marquez finished well ahead of his Big Three rivals Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales.

***

Here, in alphabetical order, is the Top 5 of each voter (plus honorable mentions) and their comments.

RON BORGES

1. Chavez
2. Sanchez
3. Olivares
4. Zarate
5. Marquez

HM. Lopez

Chavez – One of the most dominant fighters in boxing history. His knockout percentage was high (86 of 107 wins), he fought everyone and beat guys like Edwin Rosario, Meldrick Taylor and Roger Mayweather in their prime. His fight with Rosario forever changed Rosario and not for the better. He did the same to Meldrick. That says a lot.

Sanchez – If he hadn’t died young, he might be No. 1 as well as the best featherweight of all time. He finished 44-1-1 (32 KOs), with only loss coming in his 19th fight by split decision when he took on Antonio Beccera for the vacant Mexican bantamweight title. He was 4-0 (all by KOs) vs. the four Hall of Famers he faced, Danny Lopez (twice), Wilfredo Gomez and Azumah Nelson. Enough said.

Olivares – “El Puas” is one of, if not the, greatest bantamweight of all time. Killer left hook. Established the “Mexican style” of aggression. Three-time champion. Had it all.

Zarate – Along with Olivares he’s one of two fighters to twice win 20 straight by KO. He was 52-0 (51 KOs) when he unwisely moved up to junior featherweight after unifying the bantamweight title and got stopped by Wilfredo Gomez. 66-4 (63 KOs) makes him the greatest bantamweight puncher in history and two of those losses were the last two fights of his career after coming back from a five-year retirement. He could BANG. His KO of Alfredo Zamora in 1977 remains one of great bantamweight fights of all-time.

Marquez – May be the greatest pound-for-pound Mexican fighter ever. He’s a four-time world champion who beat both Manny Pacquiao and Marco Antonio Barrera. In my mind he won three of his four fights vs. Manny. He was one of the most technically proficient fighters I ever saw. You never saw a still photo in which his hands or feet were out of position. And he could punch at featherweight, junior lightweight, lightweight and junior welterweight (as Manny found out). He was on the short end of a number of split decisions, which shows me that even vs. the best competition there was little to pick between him and his opponents.

Lopez – Only 15 world champions retired undefeated and he is one of them at 52-0-1. He is only one to retire undefeated as both a pro and amateur. His 26 title fights without a loss ties him with Mayweather, Jr.

BERNARD FERNANDEZ

1. Chavez
2. Sanchez
3. Zarate
4. Alvarez
5. Olivares

Chavez – He hung around a bit too long, as many of the greats do, but at his best he was awesomely effective during an extended prime that demonstrated what can happen when you pair laser-focus with a weapon-heavy skill set. As a body puncher, few could match “JC Superstar.”

Sanchez – A speeding car that crashed and killed its young driver robbed fight fans of a fighter who was not only a legend in the making, but was already there. We can only speculate as to how much more magic he might have made in the ring had he lived longer.

Zarate – 63 knockouts in his 66 victories tells a tale of how devastating a puncher he was. He put his own mark of the “Z” on more victims than Zorro.

Alvarez – Seeing as how much more of his career has yet to play out, I’m not sure if I have him too high or too low at this point.

Olivares – It’s a Top 5 list, not Top 10, so apologies to Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez and several other Mexican legends who arguably merit the listing here. But Olivares gets the gig, and who is going to make an argument that he doesn’t deserve it?

DOUG FISCHER

1. Chavez
2. Arizmendi
3. Barrera
4. Marquez
5. Morales

Chavez – He’s the top man due to his incredible consistency, which spanned more than a decade, three weight classes, 90 bouts and the best fighters of his generation: Pernell Whitaker, Hector Camacho, Roger Mayweather, Meldrick Taylor, Jose Luis Ramirez, Rocky Lockridge and Juan LaPorte, among several contenders. He faced future hall of famers Oscar De La Hoya and Kostya Tszyu WAY past his prime. Chavez was also an icon in Mexico and a major attraction in the U.S.

Arizmendi – I think the former featherweight champ who fought during the 1930s is the first Mexican star recognized in the U.S. He faced and owns victories over fellow hall of famers Henry Armstrong, Chalky Wright, Fidel LaBarba, and Freddie Miller. He also locked horns with Tony Canzoneri, Lou Ambers and Sammy Angott. His competition was truly great.

Barrera – “The Baby Faced Assassin” is probably the best Mexican fighter I’ve ever seen live as a fan or covered live as media. He proved to be one of the smartest and most versatile boxers I ever witnessed from any country. His series with Erik Morales is one of the all-time great trilogies and his victory over Naseem Hamed is one of the all-time great boxing clinics. He beat Morales (41-0) and Hamed (35-0) when they were at their peaks. His war with Kennedy McKinney launched the HBO Boxing After Dark series, and his rivalries with Morales, Hamed and Manny Pacquiao helped draw attention to the lighter weight classes and establish pay-per-view events at featherweight. Junior Jones and Pacquiao had his number but he fought both twice and boxed better in the return bouts. Even his loss to Juan Manuel Marquez in 2007, when he past his prime, was competitive.

Marquez – Like Barrera, he proved to be as versatile as he was brilliant. But opposite to Barrera, he began his career as a cautious counterpuncher and ended it as an aggressive technician who made for entertaining scraps. His four-bout series with Pacquiao is a classic boxing rivalry that resulted in the Fight of the Year (for No. 4). His first lightweight battle with Juan Diaz was also Fight of the Year. Marquez was avoided early in his career (infamously by Hamed and even his countrymen Barrera and Morales) but he did not avoid difficult boxing styles. Sometimes he won, as he did vs. Joel Casamayor and Derrick Gainer, sometimes he came up short, as he did vs. Tim Bradley, Chris John and Freddy Norwood, but only Floyd Mayweather dominated him.

Morales – “El Terrible” could easily by my No. 3 or No. 4 choice. Not fighting Marquez hurts his standing a little bit, but his trilogies with Barrera and Pacquiao, and his victories over Junior Jones, Daniel Zaragoza, Wayne McCullough, and his countless ring wars – some of which, like the slugfest with Marcos Maidana, occurred WAY past his prime – keeps him in the company of his countrymen. I should also point out that while Morales was one of the best action fighters of his era, he could also box his ass off when he wanted to. And seven of his 9 career losses occurred in his final 11 bouts.

NORM FRAUENHEIM

1. Chavez
2. Olivares
3. Lopez
4. Barrera
5. Morales

Chavez – There’s more to legacy than belts in multiple weight classes. There’s durability, and nobody had more of that than Chavez, whose instinctive skill and hard-headed toughness carved a place of permanence in Mexican memory.

TOM GRAY

1. Olivares
2. Chavez
3. Sanchez
4. Marquez
5T. Barrera (1 point)
5T. Morales (1 point)

Olivares – Double undisputed bantamweight champ – arguably the greatest ever at the weight – two-time featherweight titleholder and multiple career-defining triumphs.

Chavez – Three-weight world champ, Mexico’s most celebrated and adored boxing icon. 36 world title fights over a 16-year span.

Sanchez – Defeated a host of brilliant opponents (Ruben Castillo, Danny Lopez twice, Juan LaPorte, Wilfredo Gomez and Azumah Nelson) in a world championship career that was tragically cut short. An exceptional talent who had everything.

Marquez – Four-weight world titleholder who wrote the book on how to beat Manny Pacquiao. Outside of Sanchez, perhaps the most technically proficient boxer to ever come out of Mexico.

Barrera and Morales – I like both of these guys over Carlos Zarate and I can’t split them. Sorry!

LEE GROVES

1. Chavez
2. Lopez
3. Sanchez
4. Zarate
5. Alvarez

Chavez – His accomplishments at the world championship level
are undeniable. His 31 wins are the most in boxing history and a strong
argument can be made that he was the greatest ever in two weight classes
(junior lightweight and junior welterweight). He also was rated The
Ring Magazine’s No. 1 pound-for-pound fighter for more than three years and
was in the top two from January 1990 through April 1994, a sure sign of
his longevity at elite level. He is the gold standard for Mexican
fighters, both in form and in accomplishments during his prime.

Lopez – He ruled the 105-pound class for more than eight
years, logged 25 victories in world title fights (tied for fourth all
time with Dariusz Michalczewski, who SHOULD be in the IBHOF), retired
as a world champion at 108, and finished his career 51-0-1. The
only blemish on his record is a technical draw against Rosendo Alvarez, who he defeated in his next fight. He also passes the eye test; he is arguably the most technically perfect fighter I’ve seen in 47 years of watching boxing. He
could do it all – box, slug, defend, think and execute. Yes,
minimumweight is not a glamor division and many of the fighters he
defeated weren’t on the level of the fighters Chavez and others on this
list have beaten (fights against Humberto Gonzalez, Michael Carbajal and
a late-career Myung Woo Yuh are notable voids), but all one can do
is be great every time he steps between the ropes and Lopez did just that.

Sanchez – An unfinished symphony whose story was snuffed
out at age 23 just weeks after beating future Hall of Famer Azumah
Nelson. He stuffed plenty of quality into his 126-pound reign – nine
successful defenses against four men who either were or would become
champions, and his victory over Wilfredo Gomez (who gave Sanchez a MUCH better fight than most people believe) was his signature. Despite being in his early 20s, Sanchez had poise, brain power, sneaky punching power and savvy beyond his years. Had he lived, I believe he would have gone on to unify against Eusebio Pedroza and perhaps win belts at 130 and 135, but we can only go by what actually happened. And what actually happened was pretty special.

Zarate – One of history’s most dominant fighters regardless
of weight class; he entered his 122-pound title fight against Wilfredo
Gomez with a record of 52-0 (51 KOs) and would register nine
successful defenses (all by KO) before losing a disputed decision to
Lupe Pintor (which I had a draw) as well as score a signature
fourth-round TKO over WBA counterpart Alfonzo Zamora in a bout that
should have been for the undisputed championship. He was a heavy-handed
technician of the highest order who dominated until the very end of his
career (he was 66-2 with 63 KOs entering his next-to-last fight against
Jeff Fenech).

Alvarez – Alvarez belongs in the upper half of this list
because he has accomplished a lot at the top levels of the sport for
more than a decade. He has already defeated 16 men who have won world
titles during their careers and he is favored to beat a 17th in Billy
Joe Saunders, a win that would make him a three-belt titleholder at 168.
He has won widely recognized titles ranging from 154 to 175, a feat
accomplished by Hall of Famers Sugar Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns and Mike McCallum, and has a 16-1-1 (8 KO) record in title competition. His only loss took place at age 23 against Floyd Mayweather, who remained near
the top of his form at age 36, and Alvarez has since adopted his modest-volume/high-accuracy blueprint and mixed in aggression and
single-shot power. He is poised to move up the list if he can become undisputed at 168 and will move up even further if he does the same at 175 should Beterbiev, Smith and Bivol take care of their business and create a unified titlist.

HENRY HASCUP

1. Alvarez
2. Chavez
3. Sanchez
4. Marquez
5. Olivares

THOMAS HAUSER

1. Alvarez
2. Sanchez
3. Chavez
4. Marquez
5. Olivares

Honorable mention: Carlos Zarate, Ricardo Lopez and Marco Antonio Barrera

DYLAN HERNANDEZ

1. Sanchez
2. Chavez
3. Olivares
4. Saldivar
5. Lopez

Chavez probably deserves to be at the top of this list because of the totality of his accomplishments, but Sanchez was otherworldly in how he operated in the ring – perfect balance, just a beautiful fighter.

MATT MCGRAIN

1. Chavez
2. Olivares
3. Sanchez
4. Saldivar
5. Alvarez

Chavez – More than 80 knockouts in over 100 fights posted across three decades is not normal for a fighter who retired as recently as 2005. This is a man apart, a man who fought out of his time and the greatest Mexican fighter of all time with a bullet. The counter-argument is flimsy at best; Chavez spent 11 years knocking out ranked contenders whereas most fighters don’t meet 11 legitimately ranked men in their entire lives. It helps, of course, that he fought in such a definitively Mexican way. That country is special, but she may never produce a fighter to match this one.

Olivares – Olivares is probably the most underrated of the true Mexican greats and likely a controversial pick for the No. 1 spot. The reasoning is simple: He sat atop the deepest pile of bantamweights that was ever assembled, a crew more formidable even than the 1916-1921 golden era.  Olivares immolated some of these fighters. Then he made what was and remains the most difficult weight jump in boxing, from 118 pounds to 126, where he added more silverware to his overstuffed resume. He was the owner of perhaps the best left-hook in the history of boxing and my pick (by a hair’s breadth) for the No. 1 spot in bantamweight history.

Sanchez – Here then is the counter-argument to Chavez as defacto No. 1. The problem, of course, is the death of Sanchez at such a tender young age. I will admit that he was on course to plant a very high flag that even Chavez may have struggled to match, but sadly, tragically, he never made it. And if some stories of his waning interest in fighting are true, perhaps he never would have. Sanchez certainly did the work to annex the No. 3 spot every bit as much as Chavez annexes No. 1.  He boasts more defenses of his title than Vicente Saldivar and his level of competition is comparable.

Saldivar – There is something inscrutable about Saldivar that results in his drawing less admiration than Chavez and Sanchez, but truly, he is not far behind them. In terms of genius, he is likely the greatest of them all, learning to box around physical limitations that would have buried most featherweights. They didn’t bury Saldivar, who became the most complete featherweight of them all, I think. His championship reign was astonishing in its quality and he was astonishing in the consistency with which he boxed it. His stature meant his boxing was never going to survive loss of swiftness, and that’s how it played out. By that time, Saldivar was already an immortal. One final note: Rumors of Saldivar’s supposed robbery of Laguna dogged him for years. Those rumors are nonsense. The footage emerged across the last decade clearly showing Saldivar’s superiority over a fighter who was less than a year away from a win over the great Carlos Ortiz up at lightweight.

Alvarez – Juan Manuel Marquez may be my favorite fighter of all time; the fact that Miguel Canto does not make this top five horrifies me. But the time has come to hail Alvarez as belonging. In 2022 he will enter his 11th year of boxing ranked contenders, equaling Chavez. In that time he has posted one loss, and, yes, many people don’t like that, and, yes, he could have posted additional losses in that period. By my eye these were all close fights. Doubters will have to make their peace with the fact that these were close fights that can comfortably be scored close without recourse to corruption or favoritism. Either way, Canelo’s adventures from 154 pounds to 175 astonish. I won’t appraise his all-time great status prior to his retirement in earnest, but I feel comfortable, at the very least, introducing him as a valid contender for the top table of Mexican pugilism in the year 2021. Whether he remains there or not will depend only on him.

DAN RAFAEL

1. Chavez
2. Sanchez
3. Marquez
4T. Saldivar (3 points)
4T. Alvarez (3 points)

Chavez – He was a pound-for-pound regular for more than a decade, he fought everybody, dominated in most of his biggest fights, won titles in three divisions, unified belts at 135 and 140 and was involved in many huge events. He checks all the boxes.

CLIFF ROLD

1. Chavez
2. Saldivar
3. Olivares
4. Sanchez
5. Arizmendi

Chavez – Arguably the greatest champion at junior welterweight, Chavez had more wins against top contenders from junior lightweight to junior welterweight than any other Mexican warrior. He wasn’t unbeatable but his consistency for years on end was remarkable. One of the best any nation ever produced.

Saldivar – The most dominant featherweight of the 1960s, Saldivar essentially cleaned out the division by age 24, took two years off, and then came back to win the title again. Wins over Ismael Laguna, Sugar Ramos, Jose Legra, and Johnny Famechon are just some of the notables in a tightly compressed career. Saldivar rates with Marvin Hagler, Manny Pacquiao, and Pernell Whitaker among the greatest southpaws.

Olivares – A legendary thriller, Olivares set the standard at bantamweight in the late 1960s and early 1970s with memorable wins over Lionel Rose and Chucho Castillo among others. Olivares had his ups and downs at featherweight, losing a classic to Alexis Arguello but also winning two of three against Bobby Chacon.

Sanchez – The James Dean of boxing, Sanchez’s untimely death remains one of boxing’s great what ifs. He had a remarkably diverse featherweight career despite its abrupt end with wins over Danny Lopez, Azumah Nelson, and Wilfredo Gomez in one of the great big-fight performances in boxing history.

Arizmendi – Competing from bantamweight to welterweight in the late 1920s and 1930s, Arizmendi faced a who’s who of his era and beat several Hall of Fame talents, including Freddie Miller, Fidel LaBarba, Chalky Wright, and the great Henry Armstrong in the first two of their five fights.

MIKE SILVER

1. Arizmendi
2. Chavez
3. Olivares
4. Azteca
5. Becerra

Where does one begin when confronted with so many outstanding boxers to choose from? Hated to leave out Salvador Sanchez, Vicente Saldivar, Carlos Zarate and half a dozen other worthies, but the list called for just five. My main criteria concerned the level and depth of competition, and how the boxer performed against the top-rated boxers of his era.

Arizmendi – The original Aztec warrior. Went 52 rounds against the great Henry Armstrong and never came close to being stopped. Won two of their five bouts. A miniature human tank. Fought at a time of intense competition among featherweights. Record is a who’s who of the best of his era – and he beat many of them.

Chavez – A relentless punching machine. The quintessential Mexican warrior. A predator boxer who could put a serious hurt on you. Brought back the lost art of body punching. Best at 130 to 135 pounds.

Olivares – Murderous punching bantamweight, especially with left hook to liver. Could box when he wanted. Always dangerous.

Azteca – The Mexican Archie Moore. One of only three boxers to fight in five consecutive decades. Had 252 fights from 1929 to 1961. Rated among Top 10 welterweights for 40 months by The Ring Magazine. Defeated several great fighters.

Becerra – Often overlooked but wildly popular bantamweight champion in his day. Like Olivares, always dangerous, especially with his left hook. Career cut short in prime after fatally injuring an overmatched opponent in a non-title fight and retiring at age 24.

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