About 10 years ago, when Pete Carroll wasn’t yet the Seahawks’ Super Bowl-winning coach (back then, he was still trying to shake the “Former NFL washout who left USC for another shot” label), he met performance coach and psychologist Michael Gervais — a meeting that led to Gervais’ involvement with the team. It has also let to a partnership between the two men that seeks to transcend sports and enter the world of the humanities.
Compete to Create: An Approach to Living and Leading Authentically is the result. An Audible Original available for pre-order now (it’s released on July 9), it’s the culmination of a passion Carroll has had for the psychology of performance for decades.
My interview with Carroll and Gervais started as a mild push for the product in which I would endeavor to ask questions about everything from how a football team handles life in the coronavirus era to how a head coach handles an NFL in which players have never been bolder about speaking their minds on civil rights and other issues, and Colin Kaepernick has been proven right. You do these types of interviews with the understanding that there’s a small plug for the thing someone’s advertising, and you try to keep everyone on point with actual topics beyond that.
This interview was decidedly different. This interview ended with the most blunt, thoughtful, and remarkable statements about racial equality I’ve ever heard from any white coach in any sport. Clearly, Carroll has had a lot on his mind, and he just as clearly wanted to use the media car wash he had on June 30 to speak it out.
“75% of our league is Black players. And they have the wisdom it’s necessary for us to learn from. Without an understanding of their story, we don’t understand what’s going on in the world. I’m talking about white people [not understanding]. We have to position them [Black players] to speak and teach us.” — Pete Carroll
Doug Farrar: Michael, tell me about how you first met Pete, and how it came about that you decided to do “Compete to Create” together.
Michael Gervais: We were put together by a mutual friend. It was over a dinner event, and we had just a great conversation – it was switched on about the psychology of becoming what sits underneath people who become their very best, and are working towards potential. We talked about shared passions, from a non-profit standpoint as well as a sports standpoint, and about humanitarian efforts. At the end of that conversation, Pete said, “Why don’t you come up [to Seattle] and see what we’re doing?” I took him up on the offer, and I’ll tell you, I’d been in pro sports [environments] before, and it was fundamentally different. It was nothing like I’d ever seen before. It’s hard to put a word to it, because culture is the fabric of relationships… you know, that relationships hold. It was very different, and it was upbeat, and it was positive, and it was something I was excited to get to know better. That was the beginning of our relationship.
DF: Pete, you had to lean all in to this to make it work. What about Michael made that an easy decision? Because I’m sure you’ve been pitched on all kinds of performance stuff before.
Pete Carroll: It’s true – I had heard from a lot of guys over the years, from a long time back. When Mike and I started communicating and making sense, it just fit. I was really hopeful that when Mike came up, we could start a relationship that would work out for both of us. We were very open to it, and we found that there was real common ground in our backgrounds and what we believed in. I come from a humanistic psychology background, and Michael totally understands all that stuff, and it really made sense to me and helped me find my way. He’s helped me make sense of a lot of things I was doing all along, but I didn’t know how to call it. I didn’t know what the principles were. Through the process, that’s how we came to form a company for people outside of our program, if they’re interested.
DF: You mentioned the humanistic background, and I remember you telling me that you did a term paper on Abraham Maslow and the psychology of self-actualization. So, you’ve been deep into that for a long time. How much of the humanistic side comes into coaching? Because it’s football, but so much of it is human relations and teaching more than just “Brown Right Sprint Right Option.” You have to connect with your people. You have to bring them in.
PC: Yeah, I think so. I think it’s why we embrace the entire individual in the program – to try and help them develop to be their best, and put everything in line with being what they’re fully capable of becoming. Like Mike said, the discussion started on becoming, and it’s still there now. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing – working, or being a family man, it’s all the same. You have a chance to find your best, and in our world, we’re going to try and help you find it. Mike’s specific connection with the performance aspect of it – what it takes to get your body and your mind into it has been so instrumental. It’s always been there; but we’ve not always been able to develop it.
DF: In Compete to Create, you both talk about developing a philosophy. Pete, your classic example is “Always compete,” so I’d like to ask you to expand on that, because it goes beyond a buzzword, but it’s hard to amplify that in just two words. What does “Always Compete” mean in a larger sense?
PC: It’s about striving. The “compete” word is about striving. If you’re always striving to be whatever you’re capable of being, and finding your best way… that’s where the “compete” word can sometimes mislead somebody. The thought of it is that you’re always in process. This is what’s most important. It’s not about getting there, necessarily, because who ever gets to be the best they’ve ever been? A few [people] have, but most of us are trying to figure our way in that direction. That’s really what it is about. It’s about helping others find their way, and becoming fully what they’re capable of being. It’s really been an exciting thing. And even though it’s “Always Compete,” that’s a pretty simple way of saying it, and I’m a pretty simple guy. If I’m a competitor, I want to always compete. The central theme of the program is competition, and if it makes sense to other people, that’s what happens.
DF: Michael, you talk near the end of Chapter 3 of the Audible audio about developing optimism and how it’s easier now because we, as a set of societies, are further away from a constant worry about absolute survival. But that’s changed entirely in the last few months. I want to ask you both about this, because you both talk about developing and training optimism. How have you each found it challenging to maintain that in the face of this epidemic? Because this takes us back to, as you said, being eaten by tigers.
MG: So, let’s define optimism first. Optimism is the fundamental belief that the future is going to work out. And it’s a trained skill. The lenses that you see the world through are trainable. And essentially, I want to talk about a nuance between our brains and our minds. Our brain’s dictum is to survive. It’s to manipulate the environment, and to move in such a way to give us our best chance. And, it’s a meaning-making machine, based on our experiences. So, that’s the dictum of the brain, to survive. The software that is running that hardware is the mind. And optimism or pessimism is one of the key ingredients for a robust software. So, what does optimism do? It’s the ability to look at any situation, especially the hard ones if you’re skilled at optimism, and say, “Okay. If I can navigate with my partners in the process, and sometimes by myself… if I can navigate this, something good is going to work out.
The thing we hope is going to work out is a flourishing for others. That’s essentially what this book and our program is built on – to help others flourish. It begins with your approach to life, based on your principles, and we want to help you discover those principles which are foundational to you. And then, to develop the mental skills to be able to emotionally navigate challenging environments. So, if you just have the principles, but you don’t have the mental skills, it’s good, but there are going to be some sticking points. If you just had mental skills, but weren’t anchored to core principles, you end up running quite thin. So, this is the balance between the two, and optimism sits right at the center of staying in difficult environments, because you believe that if you can stay in it long enough, it’s going to work out.
DF: So, how do you, in a situation like [the coronavirus pandemic], which is unprecedented in or lifetime, how do you do that? It sounds good, and I agree with it, but the skeptic might say, “It sounds good, but come ON. Look at this!”
MG: Let’s talk about naïve optimism. Naïve optimism is the belief that it’s going to work out in the face of contrary evidence – in the face of not actually doing the work. True optimism is built on the back of, what is the work I need to do to move through a scenario. So, this is actually at the center of mental toughness, and for us to move to the next phase of Humanity 3.0 or 4.0 or wherever we might be in our arc with our ancestors, it’s going to require discipline. It’s going to require discipline of thought, a discipline of embracing empathy when we feel triggered to defend ourselves, a curiosity and listening and being grounded in the experience when it’s hard. And remember, our brain wants to pop us out. Wants is to be a cynic and protect ourselves, when what we’re suggesting is to stay in the hard conversations. To be a great empathetic listener, and a compassionate doer, and to do that from a position of strength by embracing the fragility and strength of all people around us, and to go to Version 5.0, or wherever we might be.
DF: And wear a mask. Ding, ding. Pete, how has this all affected you as a person and as a coach? You’re talking with your players, you’re trying to get a season rolling, and there’s so much uncertainty. Where are you with all this?
PC: I’m in full-on mode. I’m battling to understand all the information that’s out there so that we can make all the right choices and decisions to protect everybody and keep everybody safe. To not be clouded by the mission so much as what we’re doing on a regular basis, to keep our guys where they’re healthy and they’re well, and they’re moving forward, and we’re looking after them the best way possible. So, how is it affecting me? I’m on. This is not a normal summer. This is not the breaktime we always enjoy, and part of it is the uncertainty. The uncertainty causes some disruption and discomfort and all that, unless you know it’s going to work out.
So, you say, “How are we going to make it through these hard times?” Well, it’s going to end, eventually. We’re going to get through it. Unfortunately, the hit we’re taking is so enormous. But we will find our way to the other end of this, and whether that’s optimism or I’d like to think it’s real… there will be vaccines and times when we’ll put this stuff behind us, and we’ll be better for it. If we had really good leadership, it would help.
More than ever, I’ve been a student. It’s been six months of watching this going on and four months of really being in it, but it’s been happening for a long time. You try to find out how we can adapt to these times, and get what we want to get done with our lives. Right now, we’re trying to play some ball, you know, but we have to be healthy and we have to care for one another. There are so many new elements of concern that we’re dealing with, and I’m just trying to be great at it. I want to be the best there is at doing it, and help our guys do this better than anybody could ever imagine.
We killed it during the offseason in a way I couldn’t envision it going as well as it did. It went great, and we accomplished a lot, and we’re smarter than we’ve ever been. The transition we make now will be huge. Who would have thought that we could come out of the offseason and say that this was an extraordinary offseason – learning and teaching and concepts, and then all of the social stuff and personal stuff we dealt with has been so challenging, but necessary. Hopefully, we’re really going to make a turn here that’s extraordinary. There’s so much happening, even though we’ve been sitting at home! It’s just amazing.
DF: Thanks for the segue to the social stuff, because that’s next. I’ve covered your locker rooms in Seattle since you came here in 2010, and you’ve never been afraid to draft and sign players who are intelligently outspoken – Richard Sherman and Michael Bennett come to mind. You’ve marched recently with an “Equality” shirt, and you’re obviously aware of the recent and rapid increase in NFL players who are not only protesting, but speaking their minds as never before. What are your thoughts on where this is going, and where it needs to go?
— Doug Farrar (@NFL_DougFarrar) July 1, 2020
PC: Well, this is a time for transformation. This is that time. There have been moments in the past. There’s been an ongoing, enormous moment through our entire lives, and we have not answered the call. And now, we have to do this. The necessity of the moment has to be supported by the love and the vision of moving forward and taking care of areas we haven’t in the past. Hopefully, we’re going to do a great job of this, and we’re not going to back off the topic at any time with the people in our organization, because we all have to grow. We all have to learn, and we all have to come to understand what it means to live in a society where everybody is loved, and everybody is cared for, and everybody is equal. And there are people who are going to work against us in that regard. There are people who don’t see it that way. We’re going to have to overcome with our connections, with our love, with our vision, with our intellect, with our empathy, and all of that to make this happen. It’s an extraordinary time.
DF: Should the NFL do more to make its players feel comfortable and supported when speaking out about civil rights and these other issues? Because in the years before George Floyd was killed and after Colin Kaepernick “mysteriously disappeared” from the NFL, I had talked to a few players who said in different ways, “I don’t want what happened to Colin Kaepernick to happen to me.” I would ask questions about political or sociopolitical stuff, and they would beg off. And I would understand why. Does the NFL need to make players feel supported and comfortable to say what they want to say?
PC: I really, firmly believe that we need to listen to the players. I think the players need to be respected. I’ve got a big thing about this going way back through the history of this game…
DF: That’s why I’m asking you.
PC: …I don’t think players have been respected for what they have brought to our society. They’ve brought us the game, and an allegiance to our areas, and what we love and stand for and all of that, and they have risked so much to do that. Without them, we have nothing, Over the course of time, our players have become more versed, and more prepared to have so much to offer as we move forward. Their vision and their connection to what’s going on culturally and socially is at the essence of what’s going on right now.
So, we should be listening to them. And I always have – I’ve always felt like that. This isn’t new. But it’s more important now than ever. Because there are a lot of white guys who don’t know what they need to know, right? And there’s a lot to be learned. There’s a lot to understand. Our history has not worked properly for us to understand the real truth and reality of what’s going on in the world of minority groups – people who deserve the same love and consideration that everybody does. So, hopefully, through listening and positioning our players… they’ve got to find their voices too, so their voices can be constructive and productive. They want to, and they will, if we give them a chance.
It’s challenging for leadership to give the voice to the people. It’s supposed to be that way in our society, but it’s challenging, and most of the people on top try to control it. They try to manage it so they get what they want out of it. That’s not what I’m seeing here. I think it will work to our betterment if our players do have the voice, and they do have the leadership opportunities, and we follow along with them, they’re going to help us where we need to go. Particularly now.
75% of our league is Black players. And they have the wisdom it’s necessary for us to learn from. Without an understanding of their story, we don’t understand what’s going on in the world. I’m talking about white people [not understanding]. We have to position them [Black players] to speak and teach us.
DF: Another segue from you. As you said, 75% of the NFL’s roster population is Black. But there are three Black head coaches, and two Black general managers. And that head coach number is down from the “Black Monday” at the end of the 2018 regular season, when five Black head coaches were let go, and all were replaced by white coaches. How do we get from where we are to where we need to be?
PC: One step at a time. One step at a time. We have to do it for all of the right reasons. We’ve got to realize the representation that needs to be, so the league can be at its best. Our Black players need to have Black coaches to help them understand stuff, as well as white coaches. We need the mix of all people to bring around the right message it represents. We hire guys one step at a time, and we fill those spots up with real concern and earnestness that’s necessary to be done.
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